Religion

[sutherncmfrt]

Thanks, madsarge, but that is after tribulation, gog and magog. Isn't the christian belief that true belivers will be taken before all this happens? After the seals are broken and before the trumpets sound? That is what the book series is all about isn't it? Where in the bible is this conception of rapture?

[oldtimer]

it is called the rapture.....

[lizzy]

Alright, let me begin with just a brief history of Biblical translation. There is no reference to the word "rapture" anywhere in the Greek translation of the Book of Revelation. In fact, the word itself first appears only in St. Jerome's Latin translation called the "Vulgate" and then it is only found in two places, 2 Cor. 12:4 and I Thess. 4:17. The word "rapio" means to "snatch" or "take" and that is just how many Fundamentalists have interpreted the passages from the Book of Revelation where the author speaks about the faithful being taken up into Heaven. This belief that somehow the Book of Revelation is a guidebook for the end of the world has been around for quite a while, but with the rise of the different independent Fundamentalists churches since the beginning of the 20th century this misguided interpretation seems to have just been growing. Don't fall for it! Simply put, the Book of Revelation was written to give Christians hope in times of persecution, and to remind them that if they remain faithful to Christ they will eventually share in the rewards of Heaven.

If you want to read more on the Catholic understanding of the Book of Revelation I would suggest the following:

A. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1038-1050 (they deal more with the Catholic Church's teachings on the end of the world, but I think you will find it enlightening)

B. The Lamb's Supper, by Scott Hahn (this talks about seeing Revelation in a new way... through the Eucharist)

C. The Catholic Youth Bible, the footnotes in this translation are really good.

D. Biblical Exegesis and Church Doctrine, by Fr. Raymond E. Brown (don't let the title scare you, its an easy read with some really good stuff inside)

E. A Catholic Guide to the Bible, by Fr. Oscar Lukefahr, C.M.

F. The Bible Makes Sense, by Walter Brueggeman (pronouncing the author's name is the most difficult part of this book... he has some great insights)

[Tazz]

There are 17 prophetic books in the Hebrew Bible (I think it's 17). If you put it all together, I believe there will be many events to come before the "blessed hope" (rapture).

The 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelations will be 144,000 Jews who will come to believe in Jesus Christ. There will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Therein lies the 144,000.

I believe the Gog and Magog mentioned in Ezekiel 38 refers to Gog as the "leader" of Russia. I believe Magog is Russia. Ezekiel 38 and 39 blast us with alot of information. It is worth reading for sure.

[sutherncmfrt]

Okay, so there is no rapture or taking of belivers before the anti-christ shows up. So it just must a ploy of the church to get more donations. Because if you ask some of the devout the answer is "Yes, I will be go to heaven before all this happens." They truly believe, because this is what they are told. Which is fine, if it makes them or anybody a better human being then I'm all for it. But the point is how people can be led to believe anything in the name of religion. Why?
As for the 144,000-12,000 each of the twelve tribes will be taken before the tribulation and then returned to earth to live as teachers and administrators during the 1,000 years of peace. Then Satan must be set loose awhile. Why? If we are getting along so well for so long, why let evil back in? Is it because we stagnate without a little conflict? Or does God just get bored?

[oldtimer]

yes...i believe he does....and he certainly has a sense of humor....sometimes warped....just look around you....observe people....it is great we are free agents and can debate and discuss, but to me people in general pick a denomination to fit and justify their lifestyle...some need to boost their engines with a shouting, falling down Pentecostal belief and from there to Mormonism,the all reverent and holy one (i spent the first 16 yrs of my life there), which many refer to as a cult.....but aren't all denominations cults...i for one never refer to myself as religious...i consider myself spiritual....for if salvation comes in a name, IE, baptist, methodist,etc....then i may be doomed for i have attended most denominations and found the doctrine and i hate to say it but the so call preachers lacking......will continue to read this thread.....best one on here at the moment

[Tazz]

I am not a Bible scholar by a long shot. But I believe the "blessed hope" will be immediately before the anti-christ rises to power. When millions suddenly disappear, it will be blamed on some sort of phenomenon; no bodies, no blood etc. At that point, the anti-christ will rise and he will "mesmerize" the world. Maybe that's not the right word, but he will have the ability "lead" people into believing that he is the perfect world leader. Having said that, we already have certain "world orders" on this planet. The media has their own role to play as well. I see all sorts of events now that indicate the groundwork is being laid for what is to come.

I can't think of any other time where so many don't give God/Christ the respect/reverence deserved. Just as the Bible says it will be.

I watch the muslim world with great concern. I have made previous posts about the muslims so I won't bore yall again.

Anyway, I do believe God as the only God. I do believe the Bible....word for word.

[sutherncmfrt]

People thought he was coming back at 1000 A.D. Wrong. People thought he was coming back during the black plague in Europe. Wrong. In the 1840's an Ohio preacher convinced thousands the time was near. Wrong. Many thought that Y2K would bring him back. Wrong. But now I'm told the signs are there and he is coming back soon. Right.

[sutherncmfrt]

Tazz-I can't believe you just condemned a few billion people to hell. Well, that is the Christian belief isn't it? If you don't have faith in the "True God" you will burn in the end? Even tho men all over the world aren't really that different. They want a job they can feel good about, a roof over their heads, hope that their children will have it better than themselves. So what makes Christians or any other religion so self-righteous that would take 1/2 the human race and torture them for all eternity. Would a "God" really do that to the beings he created? And don't give me the blather about we have a choice. Or the euphemisms people have been brainwashed with for 2000 years. Think for yourself. Why would your benevolent, turn the other cheek, why can't we all get along, "god" do this monstrous thing?

[oldtimer]

THIS ONE IS FABULOUS!!! It was written by an 8-year-old named Danny Dutton, who lives in Chula Vista, CA He wrote it for his third grade homework assignment, to "explain God". I wonder if any of us could have done as well?

EXPLANATION OF GOD:

"One of God's main jobs is making people. He makes them to replace the ones that die, so there will be enough people to take care of things on earth. He doesn't make grownups, just babies. I think because they are smaller and easier to make. That way he doesn't have to take up his valuable time teaching them to talk and walk. He can just leave that to mothers and fathers."

"God's second most important job is listening to prayers. An awful lot of this goes on, since some people, like preachers and things, pray at times beside bedtime. God doesn't have time to listen to the radio or TV because of this. Because he hears everything, there must be a terrible lot of noise in his ears, unless he has thought of a way to turn it off."

"God sees everything and hears everything and is everywhere which keeps Him pretty busy. So you shouldn't go wasting his time by going over your mom and dad's head asking for something they said you couldn't have."

"Atheists are people who don't believe in God. I don't think there are any in Chula Vista. At least there aren't any who come to our church."

"Jesus is God's Son. He used to do all the hard work, like walking on water and performing miracles and trying to teach the people who didn't want to learn about God. They finally go t tired of him preaching to them and they crucified him But he was good and kind, like his father, and he told his father that they didn't know what they were doing and to forgive them and God said O.K."

"His dad (God) appreciated everything that he had done and all his hard work on earth so he told him he didn't have to go out on the road anymore. He could stay in heaven. So he did. And now he helps his dad out by listening to prayers and seeing things which are important for God to take care of and which ones he can take care of himself without having to bother God. Like a secretary, only more important."

"You can pray anytime you want and they are sure to help you because they got it worked out so one of them is on duty all the time." "You should always go to church on Sunday because it makes God happy, and if there's anybody you want to make happy, it's God!

Don't skip church to do something you think will be more fun like going to the beach. This is wrong. And besides the sun doesn't come out at the beach until noon anyway."

"If you don't believe in God, besides being an atheist, you will be very lonely, because your parents can't go everywhere with you, like to camp, but God can It is good to know He's around you when you're scared, in the dark or when you can't swim and you get thrown into real deep water by big kids."

"But...you shouldn't just always think of what God can do for you. I figure God put me here and he can take me back anytime he pleases.

And.that's why I believe in God."

[wizardborn1]

That's just sweet oldtimer. Couldn't of said it better myself.

[knuckledragger]

Again, I am very pleased that new people have choosen to take part in this topic.

[oldtimer]

i will admit working in the prison system challenges your faith daily....and i never try to witness to an inmate......or force my beliefs on him BUT let him open that door and i will try to talk to him if i think he is sincere....it is my belief, that if i can touch one and he never comes back to prison because of something i have said or done..i have done my job....my favorite scripture is the prayer of jabez......would love to hear debate on this one....have fun finding it.....it is in the book of corinthians.....

[Logan]

UNCLE! I can't be silent any longer. At least the reason for my return is some new people's posts.
Sutherncmfrt, you are exactly right. A loving God would not burn you in a fiery place of torture. I can prove it too. God himself said such an idea never came into his heart. Please refer to Jeremiah 32:35.
Karma Southern.

[Logan]

While I'm at it. One the subject of the rapture. Read the bible closely, I recommend getting one translated into modern English. King James is fine but we do not speak that way anymore and it will confuse you. First off the Antichrist mentioned in revelations is plural in the original scriptures(not one but many). Secondly it was never God's intent for us to go to Heaven. The Earth is and will always be our home except for 144,000 exceptional people gathered from the 12 tribes of Israel.