Religion

[lizzy]

Another thought provoking debate I am sure. Thoughts on Human cloning?

[deadlylips69]

Lizzy i wish some days there was two of me poor world lol.. i think human cloning would be helpful to a point as in more help on a farms to help the farmers but do we really need more people in the world? lol.. just my thoughts...

[knuckledragger]

Cloning is indeed a spiritual dilemma. I don't have a problem with cloning body parts. But I do think trying to clone a whole being is wrong. This world doesn't need two Knuckledraggers with psychosis running around in the world! There was once a young woman, who wrote a cautionary tale of playing God. Her name? Mary Shelley.

[lizzy]

My faith teaches that the cloning of human beings is immoral and contrary to God’s design of procreation. The first thing to recognize is that human beings are the crown of creation. All that exists was created for mankind; and so men and women are forever set apart as sacred and unique among all of creation.

The problem I have with cloning is that it treats human beings as nothing more than artifacts of technology. There is nothing wrong with seeking to study and understand the human body, but all research must be done in such a way that it respects the dignity of all men and women and children.

We need to remember that God has established a design for how human beings are supposed to reproduce; and this design of God’s says that a man and a woman must come together through the sacrament of Marriage and produce offspring through sexual intercourse which is both unitive (brings about a deeper love and intimacy between the two) and procreative (is open to the creation of life – meaning that nothing is done to sterilize the sexual act). To seek to create human life in a way other than this is to openly reject God and his design for our lives. But cloning human beings violates both the unitive and procreative elements which are essential to sex and to the birth of children.

Research must be done in such a way that it respects the dignity of men and women.However, despite this teaching, a lot of people think that cloning is a great advancement in scientific technology and are all for it. The problem is that in addition to the theological issues surrounding cloning, there are some practical problems that rise from it as well.

Let suppose that we were to clone a human being. Now we have a whole new set of issues to sort out:


Would this human being have parents or would they be the property of some laboratory?

Would they have a home or would they stay in some research facility?

What about their life? Would the sole purpose of their life be for scientific research? If so, what would happen when the “experiment” was over, would their life be ended?

What if during the cloning process something went wrong and the cloned person was alive but with some deformities or handicaps? Would their life be terminated in order to “try again”?


These are just a few of the issues related to the cloning issue. It seems that not only would the life of the cloned person begin in a way contrary to God’s plan, but their actual existence would be less than what God designed human life to be. The bottom line is this: mankind is the “only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1703). This means that human beings are not a means to an end, but an end in themselves, meaning that our value and worth as individuals does not rest upon anything that we are able to accomplish or achieve, but rather the mere fact that we exist is what makes us valuable. But cloning seems to treat human life as a means to an end only, the end being scientific advancement. The Catholic Church is not opposed to science, but there must be moral guidelines that direct scientific research.

Ok time to get off my soapbox and rest the weary hands.
Peace

[Tazz]

Well Lizzy, I agree with you. Cloning humans is wrong.


I wonder what is next after we have learned to "clone" human beings? There is nothing left.

[lizzy]

So today, just about everybody’s Irish. Ole St. Patrick brought a lot of popularity to Ireland. Legend has it that he drove the snakes out of Ireland. And some of us have added in things like clovers and leprechauns to the celebration of being Irish. But the reality of what happened is that St. Patrick spread the faith in Ireland and was a great example to the Irish people. He was willing to give up everything to let people know about the love of God. And it gave them HOPE. So on this day, as people talk about Corn beef and cabbage and wearing green, may we remember that St. Patrick's day is really about having hope in a Savior that has rescued us from death. Celebrate that!
Happy St Patricks day to all
Peace

[knuckledragger]

O.K. Ya'll, time to put the critters to bed, make sure the dishes are done, and sit back and enjoy another rant by yours truly. Anyone notice that church on the corner of 229 and 121 in Raiford? Anytime I pass a church and they have a sign up with some kind of saying, I pause and ponder the saying briefly and then move on. Well, for some reason this little church's message seems to have captured my attention for more than a few days now. It says, "God never changes, people do." Now at first I thought this was pretty cool. But the more I thought about it, the more it dawned on me, that the message was basically wrong. I cant recite chapters and versus and all that other stuff. But what I can do is remember alot of information that I have read/heard or experienced. Seems to me, God has changed many times according to the Old and New Testament. Aside from the books that have been taken out, in the Old Testament we find God taking names and kicking as*. The Great Flood is the first thing that comes to mind. The Old Testament is fraught with pretty much nothing but Gods vengeance and laws. Now the New Testament shows up, and we see God as being more "loving" and "forgiving." We don't see Gods wrath as much. But wait! Enter the enigmatic book of Revelations (the quote under my post's are from Revelations). Again we see God getting p*ssed and destroying the world again, or rather, allowing The Lamb (Jesus) to destroy the world. UH-OH, now we got a problem if we stop and think about it. In the Old Testament, God smites left and right. In the New Testament, God is all forgiving and allows his "son" to die for our sins and therefore mankind is forgiven. Or is he? Not quite. Revelations basically tells us of the loop holes that were not present in the New Testament but very much so in the Old. But I thought Sunday school told me I would be forgiven not matter what, oh wait, thats ONLY if you accept Jesus to be the way to God. But isn't the New Testament supposed to be the new covenant and you are forgiven anyway? I think the message that little church has up needs to be changed. Because one can argue based upon the Bible itself, that God has indeed changed many times. However, in mans own way, MAN will NEVER change.

[grouchymom]

Once again excellent post Knuck but you have given me a headache. It's too early in the a.m. to digest this!!

[Tazz]

Holy smoke Batman! What Knuck? Do you like smoke an entire bag of crack when you get off work?

That's entirely TOO much!

[Tazz]

For those of you that don't understand what Mormons believe:

DNA Tests Challenge Mormon Belief
Evidence shows the ancestors of American natives came from Asia.

By WILLIAM LOBDELL
The Los Angeles Times

From the time he was a child in Peru, the Mormon Church instilled in Jose A. Loayza the conviction that he and millions of other Native Americans were descended from a lost tribe of Israel that reached the New World more than 2,000 years ago.

"We were taught all the blessings of that Hebrew lineage belonged to us and that we were special people," said Loayza, now a Salt Lake City attorney. "It not only made me feel special, but it gave me a sense of transcendental identity, an identity with God."

A few years ago, Loayza said, his faith was shaken and his identity stripped away by DNA evidence showing that the ancestors of American natives came from Asia, not the Middle East.

"I've gone through stages," he said. "Absolutely denial. Utter amazement and surprise. Anger and bitterness."

For Mormons, the lack of discernible Hebrew blood in Native Americans is no minor collision between faith and science. It burrows into the historical foundations of the Book of Mormon, a 175-year-old transcription that the church regards as literal and without error.

For those outside the faith, the depth of the church's dilemma can be explained this way: Imagine if DNA evidence revealed that the Pilgrims didn't sail from Europe to escape religious persecution but rather were part of a migration from Iceland -- and that U.S. history books were wrong.

Critics want the church to admit its mistake and apologize to millions of Native Americans it converted. Church leaders have shown no inclination to do so. Indeed, they have dismissed as heresy any suggestion that Native American genetics undermine the Mormon creed.

Yet at the same time, the church has subtly promoted a fresh interpretation of the Book of Mormon intended to reconcile the DNA findings with the scriptures. This analysis is radically at odds with longstanding Mormon teachings.

Some longtime observers believe that, ultimately, the vast majority of Mormons will disregard the genetic research as an unworthy distraction from their faith.

"This may look like the crushing blow to Mormonism from the outside," said Jan Shipps, a professor emeritus of religious studies at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis who has studied the church for 40 years. "But religion ultimately does not rest on scientific evidence, but on mystical experiences. There are different ways of looking at truth."

According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, an angel named Moroni led Joseph Smith in 1827 to a divine set of golden plates buried in a hillside near his New York home.

God provided the 22-year-old Smith with a pair of glasses and seer stones that allowed him to translate the "Reformed Egyptian" writings on the golden plates into the "Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ."

Mormons believe these scriptures restored the church to God's original vision and left the rest of Christianity in a state of apostasy.

The book's narrative focuses on a tribe of Jews who sailed from Jerusalem to the New World in 600 B.C. and split into two main warring factions.

The God-fearing Nephites were "pure" (the word was officially changed from "white" in 1981) and "delightsome." The idol-worshiping Lamanites received the "curse of blackness," turning their skin dark.

According to the Book of Mormon, by 385 A.D. the dark-skinned Lamanites had wiped out other Hebrews. The Mormon church called the victors "the principal ancestors of the American Indians." If the Lamanites returned to the church, their skin could once again become white.

Over the years, church prophets -- believed by Mormons to receive revelations from God -- and missionaries have used the supposed ancestral link between the ancient Hebrews and Native Americans and later Polynesians as a prime conversion tool in Central and South America and the South Pacific.

"As I look into your faces, I think of Father Lehi (patriarch of the Lamanites), whose sons and daughters you are," church president and prophet Gordon B. Hinckley said in 1997 during a Mormon conference in Lima, Peru. "I think he must be shedding tears today, tears of love and gratitude . . . This is but the beginning of the work in Peru."

In recent decades, Mormonism has flourished in those regions, which now have nearly 4 million members -- about a third of Mormon membership worldwide, according to church figures.

Critics of the Book of Mormon have long cited anachronisms in its narrative to argue that it is not the work of God. For instance, the Mormon scriptures contain references to a seven-day week, domesticated horses, cows and sheep, silk, chariots and steel. None had been introduced in the Americas at the time of Christ.

In the 1990s, DNA studies gave Mormon detractors further ammunition and new allies such as Simon G. Southerton, a molecular biologist and former bishop in the church.

Southerton, a senior research scientist with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization in Australia, said genetic research allowed him to test his religious views against his scientific training.

Southerton found no trace of Middle Eastern DNA in the genetic strands of today's American Indians and Pacific Islanders.

[knuckledragger]

And who's the one smokin' rock???

[Logan]

On the subject of cloning here's what Jehovah has to say when man gets to big for his britches.

Gen. 11:6 Mat. 24:22


Stop playing with his toys.

[lizzy]

Time to bring this post to the frount. I wondered why it was stalled and then thought with all the things recently changing and going on in our Department, we are all in a traffic jam and stalled. We need not let this mess make us spirtually stalled at this point in our journey. So I thought hmm, Spiritual Traffic Jam that what I sometimes feel like . It is lent the time we are called to pray and fast. I have been doing alot of that lately, well lol the pray , need more fasting I do .

Think of this, You are in your car and you’re in a hurry. The problem is that no one else around you seems to be in a hurry. For “rush hour” no one seems to be “rushing” anywhere. The stress begins to build. Your eyes scan for the lane with the least amount of traffic. You are ultra aware of every minute that ticks away. Your heart is racing. You begin asking yourself why you waited so long. You want to get to where you are going and you begin looking for the shortest possible route.

Everyone's in a hurry to live life on earth, but there's little urgency in living a life worthy of Heaven.It’s at that moment that you begin speaking to inanimate objects. You curse red lights, pray out loud for green arrows. You allow turn signals (whether used or unused) to send you spiraling downward into a see of irritability and rage.

Welcome to the traffic jam.

Now, if you think this situation has to do with your car, than let me suggest you read it again, but this time read it not only literally but symbolically (as we are called to read Scripture – literally and symbolically).

Do you see what I’m getting at?
If I’ve lost you, hit the brakes and turn down the radio.
That’s what “Lent” is – it’s hitting the brakes and refocusing our spiritual “journey”.

Everyone is in a hurry to live life on earth, but there is little urgency in living a life worthy of Heaven.

We get in our steel coffins everyday, fight through the masses of other souls deep in need but shallow in “want” and just try to “survive” until tomorrow. But Jesus doesn’t call you to merely survive…He calls you to live, and not merely to “live” but to “live life to the fullest” as this verse is telling us today.

How does He help us to do that?
He gives us signals along our life route. Some are stop signs. Some are green arrows. Sometimes we need to switch lanes, or even directions.

The signals are there in your life, you just have to keep your eyes open for them. That means, too, that if you’re intentionally closing your eyes, it’s time to open them again. If you don’t…you could die.

Where might God be putting stop signs in your life?
He’ll throw stop signs on the path of people struggling with addictions or sexual sin. You know if your actions are contrary to God’s plan and His hope for you. Stop signs riddle the path of those who turn to drugs, abuse alcohol (or let alcohol abuse them), use others selfishly, abuse their sexuality, are suffocated by pornography, give into rage, gossip freely, are guided by self…there are stop signs there, though they might just be a “red blur”. If they are, it’s time to open the eyes and stop the car. You might need to slow down to notice God’s stop signs in your life.

Where might God be putting green arrows in your life?
He’ll give green arrows to people who are making serious effort to change or improve their lives. You’ll see green arrows in healthy relationships, in prayer and in areas that will make you more healthy, physically, mentally and emotionally. That’s part of Lent, too, not just “giving stuff up” but “adding on”…doing things that will make you healthier and holier in the process. There are opportunities to improve everywhere. Start new types of prayer. Begin (or increase) exercising. Eat better. Rest more. Enter more deeply into Scripture. Seek mercy in Reconciliation. Encounter Christ more frequently in the Eucharist. God’s giving you the green arrow; look for it, and take it, now.


Where might God be putting turn signals in your life?
He might be calling you to change lanes or directions and the need for you to alert others of your intentions. Often times, a turn signal is necessary after you’ve been jolted by a stop sign or after you’ve hit the brakes. It’s great that you have listened to God and that you are willing to give up things that keep us from god whatever sin God is calling you out of. but the next step is to hit your turn signal and let those people around you know that you’re changing lanes or changing the direction of your life…that change is coming and you’re not afraid to profess it.


And, if you’re afraid you’re missing all the signals, there’s one more idea I’d like to throw out.

Ride shotgun. Hand God the keys and buckle up.

[sweetbabycorn]

lizzy said:

And, if you’re afraid you’re missing all the signals, there’s one more idea I’d like to throw out.

Ride shotgun. Hand God the keys and buckle up.

Geeze, all that red light, green light, braking, left turn to nowhere has me CARSICK! I have to say, I've seen those cars with the bumperstickers that say "God is my Co-pilot" and their driving ain't too good sometimes.

God gave us all free will, hence leaving the driving to us. As long as you do what's right, you'll be fine, as "Hell" is here on Earth and this life is just a stepping stone and lesson that gets us one step closer to "Home" after we're gone from here.

[madsarge]

This is some serious reading!!!!!!!!!

www.webcom.com/~gnosis/naghamm/nhlcodex.html